We are in week 3 of Slaughterhouse Five. Folks should be approaching the end of this 288 page book.
I've heard that several members have already completed the book! This is a much easier read than our first two books were, and is somewhat shorter. Hopefully everyone who has already finished will still remember the book during the discussion :-)
I read this one on Kindle, and about halfway through started using the highlight and notes features to record thoughts I had while reading. The novel is somewhat disjointed as well, so I'm going back and rereading the first half or so. I feel there are associations I missed in the early part of the book, perhaps I will pick up on some of those in the reread.
Memory is an interesting thing. I was talking to Jeremy about the club and the book. He said he had read Slaughterhouse Five in High School, but did not remember the Tralfamadorians! One of my favorite science fiction novels is Robert Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land", in which one of my favorite parts was the church set up by the main character as a means of disposing of his wealth, by simply placing piles of cash in the tithing box, and letting folks take what they need. However, so many people were tithing into the church, his wealth was growing instead.
Unfortunately, when I reread that novel a few years ago, that didn't actually happen in the book! If I were a good conspiracy theorist who had read 1984, I might think Newspeak had destroyed the original novel with the church-sponsored socialism subplot in it, and replaced it with a less heretical (huh?) rendition. Then I would start worrying about whether the books we are reading in our group have suffered similar emendations...
Our meeting is scheduled for April 10th, at my house, at 7PM. I look forward to seeing everyone.
Sunday, March 30, 2014
Saturday, March 22, 2014
Week 2 of Slaughterhouse Five
Here we are in Week 2. Folks should be around or a little past page 100 of "Slaughterhouse Five".
I've been hearing some feedback on the "so it goes" phrase, I think it would be really interesting if a couple folks would shoot me some text of their own on how they see that phrase (I'm looking at Darryl and Mary when I say that, but it's open to everyone).
The book is reading very quickly for me, maybe 70 pages an hour. In part that is because the density of the text is quite low, with breaks on nearly every page between the paragraphs and scenes in the book.
Anyone have any observations on vocabulary? I found this word very interesting: rodomontades (page 121), meaning "boastful or inflated talk or behavior", an archaic term. I find it interesting that the old (compared to the Americans) English officers are described using archaic terminology.
There have been a couple sentences in the book that have really stood out to me, that I believe are really interesting comments.
The first I'll talk about here is on page 128, "So they were trying to re-invent themselves and their universe. Science fiction was a big help." Billy is part of "they" in that sentence, and I think it says quite a lot about Billy's circumstances, but I found myself generalizing beyond the book, and thinking about "they" in the abstract, and about how people and even nations re-invent themselves all the time, rephrasing their understanding of their own past using modern or even post-modern vocabulary, thus changing the emphasis and importance of events in their history. I find Rosewater a very interesting character in the novel.
Not far from this sentence, on page 130: "She upset Billy simply by being his mother. She made him feel embarrassed and ungrateful and weak because she had gone to so much trouble to give him life, and to keep that life going, and Billy didn't really like life at all." I feel this sentence captures something really important in how people interact with each other, with this internalized notion that we "owe" one another some kind of gratitude or perhaps acquiescence, because of what they have done for us (or to us) with no regard to what we might prefer if we could exercise our free will.
One more sentence, from page 149: "So-- " said Billy gropingly, "I suppose that the idea of preventing war on Earth is stupid, too." "Of course." What a powerful statement! It completely rejects the notion of free will, and reduces the universe to a completely deterministic system. For the Tralfamadorians, the universe MUST be deterministic, in order to be able to see the entire past and future. It is very interesting that Billy, who sees the Tralfamadorian planet as peaceful, assumes it is always peaceful, that the Tralfamadorians somehow chose it to be peaceful, and that peaceful is a good or desirable state, compared to the horror he assumes the Tralfamadorians will see war to be. Very interesting juxtaposition of ideologies.
What do others see thematically in the book, or in single sentences, that they feel speak to them strongly?
I've been hearing some feedback on the "so it goes" phrase, I think it would be really interesting if a couple folks would shoot me some text of their own on how they see that phrase (I'm looking at Darryl and Mary when I say that, but it's open to everyone).
The book is reading very quickly for me, maybe 70 pages an hour. In part that is because the density of the text is quite low, with breaks on nearly every page between the paragraphs and scenes in the book.
Anyone have any observations on vocabulary? I found this word very interesting: rodomontades (page 121), meaning "boastful or inflated talk or behavior", an archaic term. I find it interesting that the old (compared to the Americans) English officers are described using archaic terminology.
There have been a couple sentences in the book that have really stood out to me, that I believe are really interesting comments.
The first I'll talk about here is on page 128, "So they were trying to re-invent themselves and their universe. Science fiction was a big help." Billy is part of "they" in that sentence, and I think it says quite a lot about Billy's circumstances, but I found myself generalizing beyond the book, and thinking about "they" in the abstract, and about how people and even nations re-invent themselves all the time, rephrasing their understanding of their own past using modern or even post-modern vocabulary, thus changing the emphasis and importance of events in their history. I find Rosewater a very interesting character in the novel.
Not far from this sentence, on page 130: "She upset Billy simply by being his mother. She made him feel embarrassed and ungrateful and weak because she had gone to so much trouble to give him life, and to keep that life going, and Billy didn't really like life at all." I feel this sentence captures something really important in how people interact with each other, with this internalized notion that we "owe" one another some kind of gratitude or perhaps acquiescence, because of what they have done for us (or to us) with no regard to what we might prefer if we could exercise our free will.
One more sentence, from page 149: "So-- " said Billy gropingly, "I suppose that the idea of preventing war on Earth is stupid, too." "Of course." What a powerful statement! It completely rejects the notion of free will, and reduces the universe to a completely deterministic system. For the Tralfamadorians, the universe MUST be deterministic, in order to be able to see the entire past and future. It is very interesting that Billy, who sees the Tralfamadorian planet as peaceful, assumes it is always peaceful, that the Tralfamadorians somehow chose it to be peaceful, and that peaceful is a good or desirable state, compared to the horror he assumes the Tralfamadorians will see war to be. Very interesting juxtaposition of ideologies.
What do others see thematically in the book, or in single sentences, that they feel speak to them strongly?
Sunday, March 16, 2014
Love in the Time of Cholera discussion
The discussion of Love in the Time of Cholera was lively and entertaining.
Three members completed the book, all women:
Mary, Barbara, Shelia
The rest of those who attended the discussion had started the book but read as few as 30-ish pages, to as many as around 200, but did not finish.
Dave, Darryl, Jack, Alice
Jim attended as well but did not start the book.
I don't think anyone in our group especially liked this book.
Some of us found the characters to be unsympathetic. Fermina Daza is viewed as self-centered or self-absorbed, and Florentino Ariza as a womanizing man-whore. There may be some cultural effects in play here. Some of us tried to locate where the novel occurred on the map. Some of us wondered if the open sewage and animal carcasses in the bay were historically accurate.
Shelia reported she watched the movie, and that helped her get through the book.
Some of the LitLover's questions we did not answer, such as the "conflict" between Dr Juvenal Urbino and Florentino Ariza. This group of readers did not see a conflict between those two individuals.
Most of us reacted with ridicule to the "I've remained a virgin for you" line by Florentino. Several of us had viscerally strong negative reactions to some of Florentino's relationships, including the relationship with his ward.
One question indicated the novel explores death and decay. While there were descriptions of death and decay, it was not clear to us the novel "explores death and decay, as well as love". Also, it was not clear to us that Dr Urbino "refused to grow old gracefully".
Despite the lack of enthusiasm amongst our group for this novel, I still recommend Hundred Years of Solitude. I remain pleased with the quality and style of the writing in Love in the Time of Cholera, and plan to finish the book in the next couple of days.
If members have changes to suggest to this summary of our discussion, please let me know!
We had a couple items of club business to attend to.
1. Should books beyond a certain page count be excluded from the suggestions list? (yes, 800 pages max)
We have a couple large novels on the suggestion list, so the question was put to the group whether we should restrict the list to books below a certain page threshold. The decision was made to restrict suggestions to 800 pages or less, and when a book is over 400 pages, we'll meet on that book twice. With that decision, we can plan on the club meeting monthly, instead of varying the time between meetings based on book length as we have done.
2. Should we limit the suggestions list to only those book available as e-books? (yes, require suggestions to be available as e-books)
More than half our members are reading on e-reader devices, but Love in the Time of Cholera was not available as an e-book. The question was put to the group whether we should restrict the list to books available as e-books. The decision was made to accept only books available as e-books on the suggestions list.
3. I requested more commentary from group members to go into the blog.
Some members expressed reservations about sending comments. It is ABSOLUTELY NOT REQUIRED!!... I just think it would be nice if between meetings, we share even a couple lines about our reactions to the selected reading. I think it was Darryl who said it best, when he indicated these comments help him get more out of the novel, either by commiserating with his suffering, or by pointing out alternate interpretations that bring greater insight. (these are my words not his, but hopefully I captured what he was trying to say).
4. We need more (and different) input from members on the suggestion list
A few members have made suggestions for the list, but it would be great if we could get a greater variety of choices, from more of the members, in the list.
I will be working on updating the suggestions list to reflect these criteria over the next couple of days
After some discussion, we settled on Kurt Vonnegut's "Slaughterhouse Five" as our next read.
Three members completed the book, all women:
Mary, Barbara, Shelia
The rest of those who attended the discussion had started the book but read as few as 30-ish pages, to as many as around 200, but did not finish.
Dave, Darryl, Jack, Alice
Jim attended as well but did not start the book.
I don't think anyone in our group especially liked this book.
Some of us found the characters to be unsympathetic. Fermina Daza is viewed as self-centered or self-absorbed, and Florentino Ariza as a womanizing man-whore. There may be some cultural effects in play here. Some of us tried to locate where the novel occurred on the map. Some of us wondered if the open sewage and animal carcasses in the bay were historically accurate.
Shelia reported she watched the movie, and that helped her get through the book.
Some of the LitLover's questions we did not answer, such as the "conflict" between Dr Juvenal Urbino and Florentino Ariza. This group of readers did not see a conflict between those two individuals.
Most of us reacted with ridicule to the "I've remained a virgin for you" line by Florentino. Several of us had viscerally strong negative reactions to some of Florentino's relationships, including the relationship with his ward.
One question indicated the novel explores death and decay. While there were descriptions of death and decay, it was not clear to us the novel "explores death and decay, as well as love". Also, it was not clear to us that Dr Urbino "refused to grow old gracefully".
Despite the lack of enthusiasm amongst our group for this novel, I still recommend Hundred Years of Solitude. I remain pleased with the quality and style of the writing in Love in the Time of Cholera, and plan to finish the book in the next couple of days.
If members have changes to suggest to this summary of our discussion, please let me know!
We had a couple items of club business to attend to.
1. Should books beyond a certain page count be excluded from the suggestions list? (yes, 800 pages max)
We have a couple large novels on the suggestion list, so the question was put to the group whether we should restrict the list to books below a certain page threshold. The decision was made to restrict suggestions to 800 pages or less, and when a book is over 400 pages, we'll meet on that book twice. With that decision, we can plan on the club meeting monthly, instead of varying the time between meetings based on book length as we have done.
2. Should we limit the suggestions list to only those book available as e-books? (yes, require suggestions to be available as e-books)
More than half our members are reading on e-reader devices, but Love in the Time of Cholera was not available as an e-book. The question was put to the group whether we should restrict the list to books available as e-books. The decision was made to accept only books available as e-books on the suggestions list.
3. I requested more commentary from group members to go into the blog.
Some members expressed reservations about sending comments. It is ABSOLUTELY NOT REQUIRED!!... I just think it would be nice if between meetings, we share even a couple lines about our reactions to the selected reading. I think it was Darryl who said it best, when he indicated these comments help him get more out of the novel, either by commiserating with his suffering, or by pointing out alternate interpretations that bring greater insight. (these are my words not his, but hopefully I captured what he was trying to say).
4. We need more (and different) input from members on the suggestion list
A few members have made suggestions for the list, but it would be great if we could get a greater variety of choices, from more of the members, in the list.
I will be working on updating the suggestions list to reflect these criteria over the next couple of days
After some discussion, we settled on Kurt Vonnegut's "Slaughterhouse Five" as our next read.
Thursday, March 13, 2014
Last day for Love in the Time of Cholera
This is the last day for "Love in the Time of Cholera". I am not finished with this selection, and probably will not finish it. I'm at page 170, so about half-way through.
I enjoy the writing style, I enjoy the plot, but this is the slowest read I have attempted in a long while. With diligent attention I can read somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 pages an hour of this book. I dont find the language particularly challenging, so I can't really explain why it is going so slowly.
At this point in the novel, I still don't see anything I think of as "magical". There's some commentary on the Web that suggests interpreting events in the novel as "magical" may be a cultural thing.
I haven't yet found anything in the novel I thought was odd or unapproachable due to my very protestant, very white upbringing.
Hundred Years of Solitude was a better novel in my opinion, though I actually think this is a fine novel as well.
I'm very interested to hear what others think of the novel at this evening's discussion.
On other topics, we have a couple of items on the agenda for this evening:
1. Should we impose a page limit?
2. Should we avoid books that are not available as e-books?
We have now read one European (British) author and one South American (Columbian) author. Is this working for everyone?
I enjoy the writing style, I enjoy the plot, but this is the slowest read I have attempted in a long while. With diligent attention I can read somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 pages an hour of this book. I dont find the language particularly challenging, so I can't really explain why it is going so slowly.
At this point in the novel, I still don't see anything I think of as "magical". There's some commentary on the Web that suggests interpreting events in the novel as "magical" may be a cultural thing.
I haven't yet found anything in the novel I thought was odd or unapproachable due to my very protestant, very white upbringing.
Hundred Years of Solitude was a better novel in my opinion, though I actually think this is a fine novel as well.
I'm very interested to hear what others think of the novel at this evening's discussion.
On other topics, we have a couple of items on the agenda for this evening:
1. Should we impose a page limit?
2. Should we avoid books that are not available as e-books?
We have now read one European (British) author and one South American (Columbian) author. Is this working for everyone?
From Darryl
Enjoyed the book early, but much like a marathon, it slowly beat me down until I completely hated it. The writing style, enchanting at first, began to tire me, and the lead characters were very unlikeable. Love story? Between a sociopathic stalker and a shallow, self-centered biddy?
Magical element? Hmm, how about "he no longer detected the fetid reek of the bay in the city, but was aware only of the personal fragrance of Fermina Daza." (p. 148) How romantic. That stink everyone smells? Reminds me of the girl I am stalking! It's the magic of love!
"I adore you because you made me a whore", declares one of the stalker's conquests - such a lovely ideal. (p. 151) At this point this book is making me angry. There is no love or passion here - just a disturbing sense of selfishness and misogyny - but I press onward.
"This pussy is mine", writes the romantic hero on the body of another victim, who is later murdered by her husband due to this transgression. Ah, but magically, the roses grew so beautifully in the cemetery where she was buried. (p. 217-218)
Finally, I cut my losses and quit. Well, actually I jumped to the end, hoping to read about their painful deaths - cholera for Fermented Ditza, and syphilis for Fornicato Arzehole. Alas, I was deprived of this relief. If it was the author's intent to make me suffer, to feel the pain of cholera, then his Nobel prize was clearly well deserved.
Magical element? Hmm, how about "he no longer detected the fetid reek of the bay in the city, but was aware only of the personal fragrance of Fermina Daza." (p. 148) How romantic. That stink everyone smells? Reminds me of the girl I am stalking! It's the magic of love!
"I adore you because you made me a whore", declares one of the stalker's conquests - such a lovely ideal. (p. 151) At this point this book is making me angry. There is no love or passion here - just a disturbing sense of selfishness and misogyny - but I press onward.
"This pussy is mine", writes the romantic hero on the body of another victim, who is later murdered by her husband due to this transgression. Ah, but magically, the roses grew so beautifully in the cemetery where she was buried. (p. 217-218)
Finally, I cut my losses and quit. Well, actually I jumped to the end, hoping to read about their painful deaths - cholera for Fermented Ditza, and syphilis for Fornicato Arzehole. Alas, I was deprived of this relief. If it was the author's intent to make me suffer, to feel the pain of cholera, then his Nobel prize was clearly well deserved.
Sunday, March 9, 2014
Final week of Love in the Time of Cholera
We are in the final week of Love in the Time of Cholera. I've been terribly busy with a new job and such, and very tired as well which I blame on the weather. I am, of course, very far behind, so one of my projects for today is to read read read.
How is everyone else doing? Mary completed the book back in February, but I know others are making slow progress, as am I.
Does anyone have a reaction at this point to magical realism as a writing style?
Is "Love in the time of Cholera" an example of that writing style? Some web sources suggest the parrot's ability to speak "with a clarity and rationality that were uncommon among human beings" is an example of introducing magical attributes next to mundane events, but I did not see that passage in the book as magical. I rather took it as a comment about the lack of clarity and rationality among human beings.
On the other hand, the parrot's repertoire does seem quite vast, including imitation of singing from what he hears on vinyl records, to latin Mass, sailors' curses, and who knows what else? Is the size of the parrot's repertoire magical? Does the parrot's repertoire cover substantially all topics of "mundane" human speech? Does the parrot's silence when the governor and his entourage visit imply the citizenry do not speak about politics (or to political leaders), possibly because such discussion is suppressed or dangerous?
Is the parrot's speech ability juxtaposed to human thoughts and speech intended to imply that humans are also merely repeating what is learned from repeated exposure rather than being creative or well reasoned? Here I am thinking particularly about religious beliefs and political ideology, which so frequently seems to me to be inherited from one's parents and social circumstance, rather than the product of enlightened reason. Is that what Garcia Marquez is conveying, when he juxtaposes the parrot's repetition against human clarity and rationality?
I invite others to share and discuss examples where "magical" elements are juxtaposed against "mundane" elements in the book.
How is everyone else doing? Mary completed the book back in February, but I know others are making slow progress, as am I.
Does anyone have a reaction at this point to magical realism as a writing style?
Is "Love in the time of Cholera" an example of that writing style? Some web sources suggest the parrot's ability to speak "with a clarity and rationality that were uncommon among human beings" is an example of introducing magical attributes next to mundane events, but I did not see that passage in the book as magical. I rather took it as a comment about the lack of clarity and rationality among human beings.
On the other hand, the parrot's repertoire does seem quite vast, including imitation of singing from what he hears on vinyl records, to latin Mass, sailors' curses, and who knows what else? Is the size of the parrot's repertoire magical? Does the parrot's repertoire cover substantially all topics of "mundane" human speech? Does the parrot's silence when the governor and his entourage visit imply the citizenry do not speak about politics (or to political leaders), possibly because such discussion is suppressed or dangerous?
Is the parrot's speech ability juxtaposed to human thoughts and speech intended to imply that humans are also merely repeating what is learned from repeated exposure rather than being creative or well reasoned? Here I am thinking particularly about religious beliefs and political ideology, which so frequently seems to me to be inherited from one's parents and social circumstance, rather than the product of enlightened reason. Is that what Garcia Marquez is conveying, when he juxtaposes the parrot's repetition against human clarity and rationality?
I invite others to share and discuss examples where "magical" elements are juxtaposed against "mundane" elements in the book.
Mary says...
Mary said this back in February, but I've been very bad these last two weeks at keeping the blog going.
From Mary:
Have finished reading Love in the time of Cholera. The first chapter was dry and had a hard time getting the names straight in my head. Reread several pages till I got that down. The rest of the book is an easy read, at least it was for me. Encourage every one to finish the book.
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